Neha Pathak, MD, FACP, DipABLM: Welcome to the WebMD Health Discovered Podcast. I'm Dr Neha Pathak, WebMD's Chief Physician Editor for Health and Lifestyle Medicine. Today, we'll explore a topic that hits close to home for so many of us—resentment in parenting relationships. Whether you're a parent or co-parent juggling endless responsibilities or a partner trying to find balance in a hectic family dynamic, resentment can creep in and silently erode relationships.

In this episode, we'll start by defining resentment, a silent internal struggle that frequently goes unexpressed until it boils over. And even highlight the “Pain Olympics” that parents often engage in, where frustration and competition can overshadow connection and understanding. We'll explore how societal pressures, gender roles, and family dynamics contribute to these feelings and discuss why they're so prevalent in parenting relationships today.

 But don't worry, there is hope. Even if we've fallen into a pattern of resentment and challenging communication, our guest is going to help us with communication strategies to tone down the resentment and build up the connection.

This episode offers a step-by-step approach to recognizing and addressing resentment, including tools like—the speaker-listener technique, fostering mutual acknowledgment of needs, and enlisting community support.

By the end of this episode, you'll have actionable strategies to communicate more effectively with your parenting partner, model healthy boundaries for your children, and work together to navigate the challenges life throws your way.

Joining us today to walk us through this topic is Leah Love Avellino. Leah Avellino is a licensed clinical social worker and modern love therapist, a writer, commentator, and a community organizer. Leah is also the director of Head Heart at The Well, a global ecosystem for wellness. Welcome to the WebMD Health Discovered Podcast, Leah. 

Lia Avellino, LCSW: I'm so happy to be here and to get into the topic of resentment with you.

Pathak: Before we jump into our conversation, I'd love to start off with your own health discovery around this topic. When you're talking to your patients or to folks around resentment in their parenting relationships, what are some of the surprising things that you've discovered in those conversations?

Avellino: I think one of the biggest surprises is that people believe that resentment is something that they should just live with or that there's something that's cathartic about venting and complaining about what isn't working, but most people don't understand the way they are taking part in their suffering and the social influences and conditions that are making that suffering.

Pathak: I feel like you're inside of my head at the current moment. Let's dig into that. Let's start off by defining resentment. What does that mean?

Avellino: There are a lot of misconceptions about resentment. I've been studying it for 10 years professionally and working with couples, families, and women. I also used to hold on to a lot of resentment because I like to think about it as the nice person's anger. Nice people are some of the angriest people in the world because none of that anger gets expressed, right?

We're sort of imploding on the inside, but nobody really knows that because we're doing all the things on the outside. We're showing up. We're making the lunches. We're asking the good questions. We’re put together, but really, there's so much going on internally. So, I define resentment as the indicator that you've gone past your limit.

And why this is so complex for so many people is that it requires acknowledging that you have a limit. Living in our society today, we're encouraged to break glass ceilings. We're encouraged to push past our internal limits, not own that we have limitations. The other misconception about resentment is many people don't know that it's actually a shade of anger and anger is letting us know that there's something that's not fair.

There's something that's unjust, and we have to tune into that to figure out what is not quite right here. Why am I giving more than I'm receiving? I see this primarily with women, but across different identity groups, where a lot of women give to get because we haven't been taught to own our wants and needs to say, “Hey, I'm getting the short end of the stick, and I need you to pay attention to that. And this is what I need.” As a result, we treat people the way we wish they would treat us. So we empty our cup, hoping that eventually, someone will see that we have this freaking empty cup and that they're going to pour back into it.

But what we find is we wait a really long time because even though we may have been socially trained or in our families to be “need anticipators,” our other family members and community members are not.

Pathak: Can you talk a little bit about the conditions that might predispose us to developing this and growing this resentment? You talked about some of that, but I would just love to unpack that a little bit more. 

Avellino: Yes. What I find, which is super interesting, is most people don't orient to their needs until they become a parent. And the reason why is because we're aware that our children have so many needs. There are unending requests for snacks, games, and play with me, and sit on your lap, and toys, and to do things, right?

And so we start to be aware that if they have so many, what about me? And then, because we're aware that we really can't hold these young beings accountable for our own needs, what we do is we project those onto our partner and we expect them to hold it all. We do this, in my opinion, for two different reasons.

The first is when we are suffering, and we perceive somebody is doing better than we are, we are angry at them. Resentment often sounds like, look at all I do, right? It's a cry out for someone to see our self-denial. And we may have been rewarded for self-denial. “Look at how good I can be with living on so little,” but we're mad about it.

And our partners are there. And if they're going out with friends and we're not, or if they're enjoying their sip of coffee and we're scrubbing the floor, we perceive they're doing better than us. And we turn on them. The other reason why we do this is because, with the rise of secularism and our communities not really relying as much on deities and gods, we expect our partners to be able to fix so much for us.

We expect them to be able to solve our problems, too. What I often hear in couples therapy is that each person feels underappreciated. Each person is saying, wait, you think you're doing a lot, but look at what I'm doing. I'm making the money. I'm not sleeping. I'm stressed all the time. And then the other person's like, but I'm cleaning, and I'm cooking, and I'm doing the school pickups, right?

And so there's a way which we'll get into when we start to talk about solutions where we turn on each other instead of turning toward each other and really acknowledging what it's like to parent in 2024 and how much each of us is holding.

Pathak: You've really just hit on so many things that I hear myself saying to my own partner. We just recently sort of had this list of grievances that we aired to each other that I did this, and I do this, and I'm doing the pickup and I'm the gap filler parent. The other person was thinking,  well, I have to get to work because I have so and so waiting for me, or my meetings aren't as flexible as your meeting. It’s very interesting because it feels to me like we are communicating about all of the things that we're upset about, but it doesn't feel like we're doing this effectively. How are we doing it poorly? So we can identify that first, and then I'd love to get into what you see as strategies to sort of circumvent that negative narrative. 

Avellino: Yes. Those are such beautiful examples. I relate to them so well. I remember after my baby was born. There was one morning that I was breastfeeding all night, and my husband said he was tired and literally like a dagger shot out of my eyes. Like, you're not allowed to be tired. I'm the only one that can be tired, right?

I think what you're illustrating with your partner is sort of this “Pain Olympics” that we can fall into with resentment. We're angry. And our anger wants to be seen, right? We want someone to validate it. That's typically what helps us soothe. But when we're both struggling or both in pain, it's really hard to get somebody else to take down their armor before we're willing to take down ours. We want them to, but we're not willing to do what we want them to do. Right? And so, in terms of what is maybe ineffective about the way that you or I handled that situation is any statement that starts with you. Any sort of criticism is going to instigate a defense, so your system is going to respond negatively when it feels like I'm unhappy with you. And I think you're the problem. Typically, criticism leads to contempt in relationships. So the more we feel like we're told we're not doing enough, the angrier we are at the other person, and the more our wall goes up. 

I like to think of complaints as hidden needs and yearnings. It's way less vulnerable to be like, I'm doing everything, and you're not doing enough than it is to say, I feel so overloaded. I feel so small. I feel like I'm really messing up as a parent. I feel like I'm not doing good at work. I don't know how to handle this. That is a much more vulnerable position to take. So we hide that vulnerability with anger, which is more pointed, more protective, and you statements, which allow us to continue to hide our needs.

Pathak: I love how you describe it as the “Pain Olympics,” because it does sometimes feel like there's this competitive need to show rather than to say, I'm feeling overwhelmed to your point, like I'm feeling overwhelmed because I am doing this and this and this, and I just don't know how much longer I can do it. It becomes, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. You're not doing that. And so there is really this sort of competitive element to it. It's really interesting with your analogy. It helps me kind of see that. I'd love to then shift us to when you're in that moment where your cup is just completely empty, do you bring that best part of you forward to have this kind of conversation in a way that is not going to just add to the resentment?

Avellino: That is a beautiful question. I have a really gentle stepwise approach that I work with with couples and families. The first is to identify you have a limit. In groups that I've run or in therapy, I'll ask people, “How can you tell you're reaching your limit?” And rarely ever does anyone know, and the reason why nobody knows is because we really only understand our limits once we go past them, right? You just said it when we have an empty cup, when we reach that level of burnout, when those daggers are in our eyes. That's sort of the sign that there were stop signs that we blew past, and we live in a culture like I was naming earlier, that's invested in us blowing past because that allows us to perform that allows us to show up. It allows us to continue working. 

So the first step is identifying that you have a limit. What are the signs that your body is saying no? For me, it's irritability and eye-rolling. When I start to be like, you know, everything just feels like I can't be bothered. This is too much. Right? That kind of agitation and that energy that lets me know you're getting into that zone, Leah. There's some sort of course correcting that needs to happen here, and beginning to admit to yourself that you have a limit allows you to start to warm up to the idea of sharing that with your partner or relevant others. 

The second step is a lot of the resentment that we are noticing growing inside of us comes from the automatic overdoing. There are certain things that, as a parent, we might have to do, but then there are certain things that we may not have to do, but we've gotten so used to doing them that we just do it. So, for example, if I ask my daughter to clear her plate and she doesn't in the first 2 minutes, I clear it. Right? Because I don't want to wait. I want it to be done my way. But then I'm mad that no one helps me. And so what I've had to be honest with myself about is when I overdo it, I am training people in my life to underdo it. It is also not helpful to teach people to lose community responsibility, whether that's our partners or our children.

It is helpful to embolden them to take up the needs of the family, no matter how young they are, really allowing them to participate in the family system. I think it's starting to orient to the places where you override your “no,” where am I overdoing it? And where am I training people to underfunction, as therapist Dr. Harriet Lerner talks about because those are the moments where the resentment is starting to grow from a little seed. It's building. It's building. And suddenly, we have this list of all of these things that we're doing that we don't want to do. 

Pathak: Really helpful. I think that some of my resentment comes from feeling like, okay, we've got to incorporate the kids, then their various ages from 4 to 13 into being part of the team, this family team, that's doing stuff. His parenting style is more one of I'm away so long during the day that this is one way that I can show them how much I care about them. I'm going to pour their cup for them. I'm going to leave their water bottles filled for them in the morning before they leave for school. I'm going to clear their plate. It is really tough because as the parent who is there most of the time, who wants to see them doing these things, we're sort of at odds. I'd love to walk through that concrete example with the step-by-step approach that you have.

Avellino: If we look at the first step, orienting to your limit. Part of this is you really want to raise good community members. Part of that might be you don't want to do the work that they are not doing right. You see how we transfer the need to them instead of owning that we have this need? We have this need as a mother. We have this need as a parent to ensure that we're approaching our own capacity and our children's capacity in a way that will not bring up shame later on. It's so subtle, but we just abandon the “I,” which helps to breed resentment. And I think if we look at your example, it brings me to one of the other steps that we can workshop together, which is something called the speaker-listener technique. Oftentimes, when we are on different pages than our partner, and we have different approaches, we get into these wrestles. We’re shouting to be heard. We're really holding on to our thing that we think is right. They're holding on to theirs. And we feel really dissatisfied. We feel really unheard. We don't feel like we're getting good change. So, the speaker-listener technique is where each of you has the floor. When you're talking, your husband can't, and the goal of this is to use “I” statements about how it feels to be you in this family, how it feels to be you in this relationship, and really focus on your priority points. 

Another thing that happens with resentment is the laundry listing, and I do this, and I cancel my meetings, and I'm the one that's home at 5, right? And people feel bombarded. So what I like to do is there are 50 things I want, but there are three that I absolutely can't live without. When I'm doing the speaker listening technique or teaching my clients, I list those three. For example, I really need you when you walk through the door to first acknowledge what I've done with the three kids because I can't hear anything you say until I feel like I get that acknowledgment because I'm in so much sacrifice in that moment. I haven't peed alone. There are all of these ways in which I really need to be recognized. So, focusing first on I statements about how it feels to be you and just on the most important things. 

The second thing is the goal of the speaker-listener is not to get on the same page. It's to acknowledge that you're on different pages. And the couples that I see that negotiate their differences best aren't the ones that see things eye to eye. They're the ones that acknowledge we're on these different pages, but the page you're on is really important, too. And I really want to understand that. I don't know if you notice this with your kids, but I see it when working with children, too. They just really want you to hear what they have to say, like, no, mom, it wasn't fair. And then she took my thing. And we are no different. Not all needs need to be met, but they need to be acknowledged. What I found is when we don't try to change the other person's position, because human nature is if we feel like someone's trying to change us, we're going to double down on where we stand. The change just begins to sort of happen. So this is about dislocating the problem from the other person being to blame or not sacrificing enough and owning just simply where you're at.

Pathak: I'm also curious about as our children grow up. It seems like just sort of modeling this type of communication in front of them seems like it's going to be very important, but do you also think about when you're thinking about parenting and resentment in parenting, having these types of conversations with your children as well as they grow up and can participate more in these types of conversations? What's your strategy there? 

Avellino: Yes, I think you're making two really good points. The first is that a lot of children don't witness, particularly mothers, growing up with limits. Right? They see a mother bend over backward, deny her needs, and keep quiet when she's angry. I want to validate that healthy expressions of anger and stating, “I can't do this anymore, or I won't do this right now,” is a really powerful gift to give our children.

I was recently working with a mother and daughter, and the daughter was really struggling nourishing herself and taking care of herself. And her mom said to her, I told you to go out and get your needs met. I always told you that you mattered. And she was like, but did you? The daughter responded that way.

It's just a reminder to really know that that's actually a gift when we teach our kids to have limits. And oftentimes, we might be mad at our partner because we won't own our limits, and they will. They are not willing to sacrifice. They're not willing to reach that level of exhaustion. And we're pissed about that, but that is actually an indicator of something that we need and something not right in our lives, as all triggers are, rather than a problem to be attacked in there. And so with sharing about these limits with our children, it's always appropriate. Obviously, we want to keep in mind the developmental stage and how much they can understand. What does that mean for the need that they might have that's not being met? But I think to your point, this is a negotiation of needs in a family system, and the parent or the parents can not be the hoarders of all suffering, right? Everybody has to give a little, and everybody has to not have their needs met at some point.

I think, additionally, our needs change as our circumstances change. So, as work picks up for one parent or as a kid is in a new developmental stage, all of these limits need to be renegotiated and restated. Something that you may have been okay with 6 months ago might really not work for you, given your energetic levels and demands on your time and energy at this moment in time, and while it's our right to have that need witnessed, it's our responsibility to advocate for that.

Pathak: I'm so glad you brought this up because I am really curious about what your thoughts and strategies are for when these types of shifts do happen in life. So, if someone suddenly has a chronic condition that they didn't have before, or a new diagnosis that they're struggling with, that maybe they were doing a certain level of parenting and now they may not be able to, or they may have new limits. Also, I think that, as we get older, even if there's not a new condition, we're just changing. Our bodies are changing. We're going through things that we may not even have clarity on ourselves. So, how do we talk through these new limits and concerns so that we don't allow the resentment to build up in times of flux like that? 

Avellino: That's a beautiful question. I think there are two different types of approaches that I like to use. The first is, and sometimes an acute situation, like if someone has a baby or has a chronic condition and is experiencing a flare-up. That person might not be the place to share your needs with at that moment. Now, this is where I was speaking about the pressure on couples to sort of be the God, the holder of everything for you. This is why we need other significant others and people in our lives where we can pick up the phone or cry on their lap and talk about how unbelievably hard it is to not have the ability to get certain needs met in your relationship or in your family system.

Those needs might not be expressed to the person. They might be put on a shelf to be expressed later. But they can be expressed and they must be expressed elsewhere. And this is where a more community-oriented approach to family life can be really beneficial because it allows other people to step in.

The second thing is if the situation isn't acute and the other person maybe just has more needs that are taking the floor right now, it is okay to still express that need and have that person hold vigil to the need. So, for example, after I had a baby, my husband had some health issues and had to have surgery. I was so overwhelmed, and even though I didn't expect him not to have his surgery, I needed him to hold with me how hard this was for me. A lot of times, we don't want to do that for our partners because we think it means we failed or we are to blame. And this is where not taking it personally when another person has a need doesn't mean we're failing. My partner is saying something to me, but it doesn't mean I'm failing him. It just means that he has a need that's not being met. And we can pick and choose which ones are for me and which ones are for him and his community. So just remind yourself that it's okay to express and it's okay for our partner to validate without fixing.

Pathak: That's really, really just powerfully stated. As always, I appreciate all of your insights and this conversation. I'd love to end the episode with just a few action items that you might have or a few very clear takeaways, like your speaker-listener technique that someone can walk away with after they listen to our conversation.

Avellino: Yes, so the first is understanding that you have a limit and accepting that and reminding yourself that even if you've been rewarded for self-denial and self-sacrifice, that is not the way you have to move forward. The second thing is looking at the places where you overdo it and enable people to under do it. The third is not hiding your needs under complaints but rather owning them in the speaker-listener technique and making room for your partner to do the same. And also, remind yourself that you both can join together to be mad at the forces that are making life hard right now, right? Whether that's your job, both of your jobs and the demands on your time, unaffordable health care, sexism, that's made it hard for women to advocate for their needs.

All of these, whether or not we name them, are working us over. So, looking at the places we can both be like, yeah, this is messed up. We've got too much on our plate, and we're struggling, and we're turning against each other because there's nowhere else to turn. No one will accept this dumping. This can be really powerful and strengthen the foundation of the family and to remind yourself that your needs are always changing, so you can always ask for different needs. You can always acknowledge different needs as those circumstances shift, and so will your needs, and it's okay to be needy. Neediness is humanness, and my liberation has been tied to me owning that neediness as a wife, as a daughter, as an employee, and as a friend.

Pathak: So powerful. I think that I'm certainly going to take away your very clear step-by-step approach and then also team up together to at least honor and acknowledge what maybe the world is throwing at us so that we're not thinking the partner is throwing it at us. The world around us is maybe a little bit difficult, and how can we both navigate it together? And then I love what you also said about pulling in the community and other support as well, that it's not necessarily just aside from being very open and transparent about what your needs are with your partner. Maybe it's someone else that you need to go to, some other friends, some other community support to help meet that need. I think that's really, really powerful. And then the third thing I'm taking away really is just how to pull our children in to feel like they're part of this team as well, especially as they get older so that it's something that they can model in their own lives. I just, again, always appreciate being able to spend time talking with you. 

Avellino: I love all of our brainstorms and how we piece things apart and put them back together. Thank you so much for getting into this with me.

Pathak: Thank you so much for being with us today. To find out more information about Leah Avellino, visit leahloveavellino.com, and we'll have more information about how to connect with her in our show notes.

Thank you so much for listening. Please take a moment to follow, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite listening platform. If you'd like to send me an email about topics you're interested in or have questions for future guests, please send me a note at webmdpodcastatwebmd.net. This is Dr Neha Pathak for the WebMD Health Discovered podcast.