Samantha Banerjee: I think the most critically important thing for anyone to hear who is going through this is that this is not your fault.
So many of us are carrying regrets and these excruciating what ifs? And that is just absolutely soul-shredding. The message that I want to get out there to every single family going through this is that you did not fail your child.
So many families who go through this walk out of the hospital feeling completely alone. And I think that is something that parents really need to know too—that they're not alone.

John Whyte, MD, MPH: Welcome to the WebMD Health Discovered Podcast. I'm Dr. John Whyte, WebMD's Chief Medical Officer.
In today’s episode, I’m joined by two remarkable experts to address one of the most heartbreaking and often misunderstood topics in women’s health: stillbirth. We'll tackle the common myths and misconceptions that swirl around it—everything from Could I have prevented it? to Did I miss some crucial sign?
We'll dig deep into the emotional toll a stillbirth can take on mothers, partners, and families, and explore how mental health support plays a critical role in the healing process.
We’ll also look at the questions women frequently ask themselves in the aftermath, like whether they can safely conceive again or what tests or precautions they might need next time.
How do you navigate the flood of conflicting emotions—grief, guilt, anger, and isolation? And more importantly, where can you turn for reliable information, compassionate care, and community support when it seems like no one wants to discuss what you’ve been through?
Our guests are here to shed light on these concerns, offering insights, evidence-based resources, and a sense of hope—even in the darkest of times.

Let me introduce my first guest, Dr. Heather Florescue. Dr. Florescue is an OB-GYN in practice at the University of Rochester Medical Center, Gynecology and Childbirth Associates in Rochester, New York.
Welcome to the WebMD Health Discovered Podcast.

Heather Florescue, MD, FACOG: Thank you so much for having me.

Whyte: You know, as I said, Dr. Leski, in the opening, this is a really serious and weighty issue. But for listeners who might not be familiar with the term, could you start by explaining what stillbirth is and how it differs from miscarriage?

Florescue: Yes, of course. I am so honored to be here, and I hope any pregnant people listening—please try to stick with us and listen to this podcast, 'cause I’m hoping that you'll learn some really good things.

So, miscarriage is defined as losing the baby before 20 weeks in utero.
And then stillbirth is after 20 weeks—but that is in the United States. Different countries will use a 24-week cutoff or even a 28-week cutoff, which of course makes studying this even harder when you're looking internationally, 'cause you have to make sure you're comparing equal groups.

Whyte: As you know—and we've talked about—we're really fighting against a lot of misinformation out there on a variety of medical things, and that relates to the causes of stillbirth.
Could you walk us through some of the most common risk factors?
And clarify what does and does not increase a pregnant individual's risk?

Florescue: When we look at common risks of stillbirth, there are things I think probably everybody would think about. So we think about hypertension—any high blood pressure during pregnancy.
We think about things like diabetes, higher-order multiples—twins, triplets definitely have increased risks.

But there are also some increased risks that are becoming more and more important as we go forward into a more modern era. So pregnancies like in vitro fertilization increase the risk. People having babies after 40 are at increased risk—and those are things that often people don’t realize.
Then there are other risk factors such as obesity and smoking, which are important things to try to address, especially before...

Whyte: Yeah.

Florescue: ...it occurs.

Whyte: What about things like food?

Florescue: Yeah. So when we think about foods, we’re not actually thinking necessarily as much about stillbirth, but listeria is the big one that’s out there. I talk a lot about listeria because they talk about the cold cuts and all those kinds of things—and food preparation.

In reality, stillbirth is a thousand times more common than losing a baby to listeria. And usually, listeria loss is almost like a miscarriage or preterm labor type thing. But we know that about 24 cases maybe happen a year...

Whyte: Hmm.

Florescue: ...in the United States. But there are a thousand times as many stillbirths in some years.
So stillbirth is much more common, but much less talked about.

Whyte: What about exercise? Sometimes women are concerned about too much exertion. Does that have an impact?

Florescue: Not that we really think. People with hardworking jobs—you know, they're looking a lot at, ironically, residents and residents in surgical fields—and really not seeing an impact of that.

And we do know that exercise is vital to improving outcomes in pregnancy and lowering hypertension.

Whyte: And you had mentioned that early on, but I’m going to ask you all the questions that are on people’s minds that maybe they’re afraid to address.
I think another one that sometimes women express: What about having sex during pregnancy?
Does that impact risk?

Florescue: Not that I think we’ve ever seen.

Whyte: Hmm.

Florescue: There are rare women that we recommend not having sex during pregnancy, such as people with placenta previa, where the placenta's over the cervix.
But that has not been associated with stillbirth.

Whyte: I mean, we have to acknowledge—as we did at the beginning—that losing a child is a profoundly heartbreaking event.
Could you speak about the emotional and psychological impact of stillbirth on families, and what resources or support systems have you found to be the most effective?

Florescue: Oh yeah. I mean, I could talk about that subject all day.
One of the things with stillbirth is people often don’t know what to say, and so often people say nothing at all—and it makes it a very marginalizing thing. It makes people feel very much alone.

A lot of times, even when they don’t feel alone immediately after—because people will rally around somebody after they’ve lost a baby—unfortunately, people have to go on with their own lives.
So it's in the weeks and months that follow that the weight of the loss can sometimes even become more profound.

There’s a lot of ideas that people move on from this grief or that they're going to get better. And yes, they do—the grief does dissipate a little—but then there are overwhelming triggers.
Even people 30 years out from losing a child will, on that anniversary or that birthday, be grieving profoundly.

So we really want society to not tell them they need to move on, to not use phrases like, At least you can have more babies, or anything like that.
We want to really respect that this is a huge loss. This child is never replaceable. Even if they have a healthy child that follows, that does not replace what has happened for them.

In terms of resources: one of the best things for patients—or if this happens to you—is to talk to your social worker at the hospital.
They are really good at connecting people with local therapists and grief counselors. I highly recommend getting a therapist for one-on-one.

There are many, many people out there—via social media, via organizations—who are there to provide support for you. You are not alone if this happens to you.

Resources include things like Star Legacy Foundation, Pregnancy After Loss Support. I really like SAD Dads Club because dads are grieving as well, and they need a different, sometimes better, way of connecting.

You can connect with the moms that push. You can connect with anybody out there who has lost a child—and sadly, you'll be a part of a really great group of...

Whyte: Yeah.

Florescue: ...people who are there to support you.

Whyte: You're not alone.
That's an important message that you're bringing.

Heather, I want to talk about this concept of the invisible postpartum. Can you explain that?

Florescue: So one of the phrases that people use a lot is that they're stillborn, but they're still born.
This is a mother and father who still delivered a child and lost a child. But they still have milk coming in. They are still having bleeding.

They have tears they're recovering from. They may have had preeclampsia, so they’re recovering from high blood pressure disease—or even, very rarely, a C-section.

So we want to give them the same postpartum care we give our other patients—but add like 50-fold to that.
They're at increased risk for postpartum depression, and they're actually at increased risk of dying.

And that’s because any complications that they had—because they’re acutely grieving—they're going to be less likely to call, right?
They may be less likely to call because they have a high fever.
They may be less likely to call because their blood pressure’s high—because simply the act of breathing is too hard to possibly make the phone call they need to make.

So one of the things that I do—and I would encourage any doctor or midwife who hears this—is call them regularly.
When my patients lose their babies, I’m talking to them every few days at first, and then I space it out organically based on what they need. Because I’m going to catch those things, right?

With my patients, I’m going to catch their mental health, but I’m also going to catch their physical health changes.
We know their mortality and their morbidity—meaning getting very, very sick—is so much higher.
So we need to respect their postpartum period.

And when it comes to things like lactation, we really need to make sure that they are learning all the methods they can to suppress the lactation as well, because that is such a huge trigger for postpartum depression and blues.

We want to make sure we’re addressing all those postpartum needs—regardless of the fact that they didn’t bring a healthy baby home.

Whyte: Now, we know that prenatal care plays a critical role, but we also have to acknowledge — you know, everyone doesn't get prenatal care in the United States, and that sometimes is surprising, especially for first pregnancies. But what can be done at the community and the healthcare system level to close these disparities in care and outcomes?

Florescue: Oh, that's a wonderful question. I wish it was reachable for everybody — prenatal care. Some important things with people who have limited access include getting the prenatal labs done at the beginning of pregnancy. I see that as a vital thing. So, anything to reach out to those. Then of course, education — on things like social media, in churches, in temples, community centers — where we can put up signs that talk about fetal movement, or where we can ask, “Are you monitoring your blood pressure?”

So, anything that can bring checking blood pressures on pregnant women into the communities — all those things could really help make a difference. So, prenatal care doesn't have to necessarily be...

Whyte: Yeah.

Florescue: ...it can be done as an outreach — to anywhere people are.

Whyte: Now, expectant parents are often anxious about what they can do to prevent complications. What measures do you find during pregnancy and before conception can help reduce the likelihood of stillbirth? You talked about controlling some of those risk factors. What else can people do?

Florescue: So yes — working on quitting smoking, exercise, healthy eating. And then the other big things we talk about are, you know, fetal movement education, and then sleep position. So, the easier one is sleep position. Basically, we just instruct people after 28 weeks especially to fall asleep on their sides.

Any side is fine, and if they wake up on their back — not to panic, just go back to their side. The reason for after 28 weeks is really that the uterus isn't pressing quite as much before then.

Whyte: Well, I wanted to follow up about, you know, signs that people should be alert to. And there's often confusion about when to seek medical attention for perhaps reduced fetal movements — especially for first-time parents. I think it's a little different for second-time moms. What could you provide in terms of guidance on what symptoms parents should look out for, and how should they communicate concerns to their care teams? Because they don't want to be calling every day, but they also don't want to be ignoring something. And sometimes it's confusing to know what's a normal part of pregnancy and what's a potential warning sign.

Florescue: So, this is a speech I give to all my patients in the office: You're never bothering us, and you should never feel like you're bothering us. If you're worried about anything — you should call. Every baby’s different. There is not one way for a baby to behave, which is why we don't want you using the “my baby should kick this much” standard for all babies. We want you to know your baby.

So, anything you can do to get to know your baby at 26 to 28 weeks — you want to know their pattern, their frequency, their timing, their strength. And if you are worried — if it doesn’t seem right — you just pick up the phone and call.

There are myths out there like “babies run out of room.” Anterior placenta is another myth — that they sleep, that they don't move in labor. And unfortunately, family members and friends will often try to falsely reassure people that it's normal: “Your baby's just running out of room. You don't need to call. You're just being anxious.”

Please don’t listen to those feelings. If you are worried, we care, and we want you to call us.

Whyte: That's a great point. Folks should call their doctor, seek expert advice. Be a squeaky wheel. Don’t be afraid to address your concerns.

Now, I’ve been seeing a lot of research out there that’s talking about maybe there should be genetic testing or placental pathology examinations after a loss, because that might inform future pregnancies. Now, that’s not something that we did a while back.

So I want to ask you — how might these tools help families and doctors nowadays better understand and prevent stillbirth? Is there value there?

Florescue: I'm obsessed with placenta. So, one of the things physicians can do is realize that cord accidents are not the number one cause of stillbirth at term. Often the cord will be around the neck, and we'll say, "Oh, that's why the baby died." And that is a huge disservice to the family. They deserve to know why their baby died, and you don't want to narrow the diagnosis.

So, the placenta and offering an autopsy are really important things. The placenta's a gas tank for the pregnancy. So, if we have an outcome like preeclampsia or a small baby or stillbirth — it is most likely something going on with the placenta.

And if you send the placenta after a live birth, we need to learn to look at the results and analyze them and say, “What could we do differently this pregnancy to prevent another fetal growth–restricted baby or preeclampsia?” Because you don't know — the next pregnancy could result in stillbirth. These are all on a continuum. A growth-restricted baby is at risk for stillbirth.

So, the findings we see in these placentae — we really should be acting on in the next.

Whyte: Yeah. Heather, let's just be explicit and ask what I am sure everyone asks you, which is about the likelihood of recurrence. So, what does the current evidence say about the chances of stillbirth happening again, and how should this guide care in subsequent pregnancies? I'm sure everybody asks you that.

Florescue: There are different percentages based on what the cause is. And one of the things is, we do know recurrence is...

Whyte: Is...

Florescue: ...if we were to let the pregnancy go as long as it did before. But we do have some leeway with the next pregnancy to deliver sooner — and so that actually does help with reassurance.

Very few of my stillbirth moms want an exact number for the next pregnancy, and it is individualized, of course, based on their risks and everything like that. And in their mind, the risk is 100%, right? It’s very rare that it actually comes up like, “This, based on your result, is very unlikely to happen,” or “likely to happen again.”

The pregnancy is often going to be totally catered to what were the risk factors going into this loss — and what can we do to prevent it the next time?

So we focus less on recurrence — because in their mind, it’s 100% — and we focus more on: “What are we going to do to get through this really, really challenging pregnancy?” And make you realize that we have all the support in place.

And there’s really good evidence out of Tommy’s in the UK that supportive pregnancy-after-loss care may actually reduce the risk to lower than it was in the first pregnancy.

Whyte: As a society, how can we break the silence and the stigma surrounding stillbirth, while at the same time encouraging an open conversation and promoting more comprehensive policies and resources to support affected families?

I threw a lot in there as the last question.

Florescue: You did. You did. You know, one of the things is saying their names. Supporting somebody who's lost a baby can really make a huge difference. Obviously, research is huge.

So you got into the genetics — all of those kinds of things. We need to research this. We need prospective studies. We need ways of finding these quote-unquote “textbook pregnancies” that will end in stillbirth. How do we figure that out? What is that gene or that anomaly in the placenta that is going to tell us — at 20 weeks, on this healthy mother who has no reason to lose her baby — you're at increased risk, and we can plan accordingly.

As I said, the recurrence risk may be lowered simply because we deliver — sometimes by 37 weeks instead of letting them get to 40 weeks. So that's a big part of the prevention piece.

I think another thing that's critical — kind of putting a plug in — is that we need to educate our residents more about the care of people who've lost babies. Our nurses more. The more we can provide wonderful care at the time of loss, the more it can really start that grief journey off in the best possible way.

So, the hospital I deliver at — we provide phenomenal care for our patients when they lose their babies. And that's one of the best ways we can get the grief process open to the best kind of start that it possibly can be.

It starts in the hospital. If patients say, “I had the best experience in the worst thing that could possibly happen to me,” their grief process is going to be better, their family's going to help them grieve better, and it's really going to set them on the road to being able to put one foot in front of the other again.

So that's an important piece in this as well.

Whyte: I want to turn to my next guest, Samantha Banerjee. Samantha is the Executive Director of Push for Empowered Pregnancy, a leading U.S. stillbirth prevention nonprofit — and mom to Alana, who was born still in 2013. We’ll explore the work that PUSH is doing to connect grieving families, offer accessible resources, and advocate for families impacted by stillbirth.

Samantha, thanks for joining me today.

Banerjee: It's great to be here, John. Thank you so much for having us on today and for sharing about this important topic that often gets swept under the rug.

Whyte: Absolutely. And I should point out that you and I have corresponded before because you really have helped us at WebMD make sure we get accurate information about stillbirth online. So I want to thank you for that.

Banerjee: I want to thank you, because it is so critically important that parents have access to clear, accurate, evidence-based information — and WebMD is a top source for that. And so, we’re just so grateful that you guys were open to the feedback and helping us get the message out there.

Whyte: We know that people like to learn by stories, and I wanted to start off with asking you — what's the story and the mission of PUSH Pregnancy?

Banerjee: My personal story is that in 2013, I was pregnant with my first child, my daughter Alana. It was a perfectly healthy, low-risk, normal pregnancy. We were told it was “by the book” the whole time. And two days before her due date, I went into labor, showed up at the hospital thinking we were finally bringing home our baby girl — only to find that she inexplicably no longer had a heartbeat.

I had never heard of stillbirth happening to anyone in this day and age — let alone me, who had every privilege at my disposal and had read every book, blog, and website I could get my hands on. I took a 10-week birthing course. So we were just completely blindsided. And when we got home, we were absolutely shocked to learn the statistics of how frequently this is still happening — 65 times every single day in this country, for decades.

Yes. So, as Dr. Heather shared — the grief was horrific. It took a long time to understand what had happened to our daughter, and to stop blaming myself for it, honestly.

Whyte: Mm-hmm.

Banerjee: Once I finally did, it became very clear that what happened to me was not my fault or the result of any mistakes that I or even my providers made.
It was a system-level failure. Because if you have tens of thousands of families every year across this country—and their providers—making the same quote-unquote mistakes, that is a system-level issue, and something that needs to be fixed at the root.
And so, that is where PUSH for Pregnancy came from. In 2021, a bunch of us bereaved parents from across the U.S. got together. By that point, it had been coming up on eight years since my daughter’s death. For others on my team—my friend Marjorie Vale, for example—her son Alex would’ve been turning 18 that year.
And nothing had changed in all of that time in prenatal care. Nothing had changed. The numbers had not improved for stillbirth rates, and we just couldn’t wait anymore for somebody else to fix the problem.

Whyte: And you talk about this desire for progress and change, but you also talked about— which I think is important to note—that you’ve felt the medical field's not open...

Banerjee: Yeah.

Whyte: ...to taking feedback. They don’t like to listen to real-life experiences. It’s all data in journals.

Banerjee: The thing that’s really frustrating is that it’s not like there’s a lack of data in journals or research.
There hasn’t been a ton in the U.S., but the stillbirth rates are well documented. I mean, if you look at the CDC WONDER database, it very clearly shows that stillbirth is claiming more children’s lives every year up to age 14 than prematurity, SIDS, car accidents, drowning, guns, fire, poison, flu, and listeria—combined.
Three times as many American children’s lives than all of those things I just mentioned, every single year, for decades.

Whyte: I don’t think people know this.

Banerjee: And even doctors don’t know it. Again, because this is...

Whyte: I’m a doctor. I didn’t realize that.

Banerjee: Yeah. No, people are shocked to learn the scale of the problem because the average OB sees maybe one or two of these a year, and what they have been taught is that sometimes these things just happen.
That it’s heartbreaking. There’s nothing you can do about it.
And for a long time, that was the conventional wisdom. But in the last several years, there’s been huge progress made in some of our international peer countries, with really prioritizing stillbirth prevention—and they’re seeing immediate 20 to 30% drops in their rates.
And so, if they can do it, why can’t we?

Whyte: Exactly. And you talk about how PUSH for Pregnancy is very focused on issues of disparities—in terms of how women of color experience worse outcomes—and you’re motivated to change that, particularly as it relates to stillbirth.
Tell us about your interest in what PUSH for Pregnancy is doing there.

Banerjee: It’s something that we are very committed to at PUSH.
It’s uncomfortable—something a lot of people don’t want to acknowledge, especially with the political climate right now.
But it is absolutely essential. And so, we are committed to centering the voices of marginalized families that you typically don’t hear from. Because if we can fix the problem for those most at risk, it’s going to improve care for every family.
We work extremely closely with the Black maternal health community and many of the leaders there fighting maternal mortality, because just like we see with maternal mortality and morbidity, Black, Indigenous, and people of color face significantly higher risk of stillbirth.
Black and Indigenous moms in particular are having stillbirths at twice the rate of their white peers, and they’re not protected by any of the social determinants that you typically would see.
And so, where that disparity is coming from is systemic, structural, institutional racism.
And unfortunately, so many of the stillbirth organizations were led by white suburban women—me, guilty—and it just wasn’t an issue that anybody was really focusing on. Even though people would quote the stats about Black moms being twice as likely to have a stillbirth, no one would explain why.
This is literally Black and Brown moms not being listened to, and it’s putting their lives and their babies’ lives at serious risk.

Whyte: You know, our website at WebMD is all about “better information leads to better health.” And in many ways, that’s what you’re talking about. And I love your website that also focuses on giving people resources.
What can they do? How can they find out more information? Your site really contains these resources for families at the various stages of the pregnancy journey.
So can you talk a little bit about it for our listeners, so they understand what resources you have and how people can access them?

Banerjee: Actually, all the information on our website was compiled by our team of volunteers. We are currently all volunteers at PUSH.
It is to share the information that hundreds of stillbirth families across the country wish that somebody would have told us—because it might have made a difference in our child’s outcome.
We also try to include the things that you may not hear from your provider because they’re standard of care in other countries, but they’re not here, or they’re emerging research.
And again, we don’t claim to be medical experts—we’re not doctors or anything—we’re just moms. We’re your peers.
In the effort to understand what happened to our children and what caused their deaths, we have read all those journals, right? We go to the medical conferences.
We are really a thorn in the side of the medical community because we are desperate for answers.
So, we’ve just taken it upon ourselves to disseminate whatever we’ve learned to other parents. Because for so many of us, that was how we learned—afterwards—for our subsequent pregnancies.
And we’ve learned how incredibly important it is to advocate for yourself in our medical system today.
The goal is to keep people informed of their options. And then most importantly, we share strategies to advocate for yourself in pregnancy.
Helping parents to understand the landscape—you know, who in your doctor’s office are you actually talking to when you call to report an issue? And do they have the authority to help you?
What questions should you be asking your provider at your routine appointments, and at what point in the pregnancy?
And how should you ask those questions in a way that’s going to be well received?
Most importantly, how to raise concerns effectively. You know, we have a strategy called using your “curse words.”
Not actual curse words, but keywords that really help flag providers that—wow, this mom is really concerned, and I’ve got to listen to that.
We know that not every stillbirth will ever be preventable.
But we feel extremely strongly—as parents who have had to shoulder the guilt and regret and self-blame after a stillbirth—that every parent deserves to know that they and their providers did everything possible to give their baby the best possible chance.
And unfortunately, no stillbirth family in America can say that right now.

Whyte: And you mentioned being a thorn in the side. I hope we’re moving away from that and toward a much more collaborative discussion.
And people should not think that they’re being a thorn in the side, because we want to be collaborative.
And you have on your site—which I really enjoy—resources for providers. So what are you hoping to shift in the patient-provider dynamic around the topic of stillbirth?

Banerjee: Well, you said it exactly, John. We want it to be more collaborative.
Our goal around shifting the patient-provider dynamic is to really, number one, change the messaging.
The vast majority of OBs do not understand the scale of the stillbirth crisis. And not just OBs—public health officials too.
I’ve met with top-ranking officials in state departments of health in very large states who have, to my face, said, “I don’t know where you’re getting these numbers from.”
And I said, “I’m taking these numbers from the CDC.”
There are literally 15 times as many stillbirths as there are SIDS deaths in the United States right now.
But people just don’t know.
The second part is making sure that providers know that stillbirth is often preventable.

Whyte: What would you say to a parent going through this right now?

Banerjee: I think the most critically important thing for anyone to hear who is going through this is that this is not your fault.
Nothing that you did could have caused this loss, and you couldn't have known what you didn't know. So many of us are carrying regrets and these excruciating what-ifs because we're not getting full information during our pregnancies when we still have time to act on it. And so that is one of the most painful aspects of stillbirth today—
you have no assurance that this really wasn't preventable. In many of our cases, it is preventable, and that is the absolute most gut-wrenching thought in the entire world.

And so, when your providers and the autopsy results and the entire society are saying, "Sometimes these things just happen. Your baby was perfectly healthy. We followed all the protocols, so I don't know what else you want from us"—where does that leave a mom? That leaves a mom with no one to blame but herself. And that is just absolutely soul-shredding.

I don't know a single stillbirth mom who hasn't had those thoughts. So the message I want to get out there to every single family going through this—especially every single birthing person—is that you did not fail your child.
The system has failed all of our children. It's not on you, and it shouldn't be on you to fix it. However, after decades of having other parents try and fail, PUSH is here to make sure it happens. You know, our mission is to eradicate preventable stillbirth in the United States by 2035, and we are not taking no for an answer.

So many families who go through this walk out of the hospital feeling completely alone. I think that’s something parents really need to know too—that they’re not alone. They need to know that their baby’s life matters.

And, you know, we talked earlier about the invisible postpartum experience of parents who've had a stillbirth. Let’s just get to the truth of it—stillbirth is still a birth. This parent just had a baby. And even though you can't see that baby, she’s coming home with a brand-new body, with all of the same hormonal and emotional swings.

She is making the same adjustments in her life, in her family, to accommodate this new member—this new child. And it's in a way that she never could have anticipated and which no one hopes for, but it’s still happening. And so I think it’s really critical that everyone in the life of somebody who has had a stillbirth keeps that top of mind.

She still needs that care. She still is not supposed to be walking up the stairs. She still doesn't need to be doing laundry. She still needs someone to help feed her and make sure she's drinking water, and make sure that she’s going to her postnatal appointments to get checked out.

She’s subject to the same risks as anyone else in the postpartum period. We know that two-thirds of maternal deaths take place postpartum—and 60% of those are in the first six weeks after giving birth. And this is the exact time when parents are being stripped of their leave and forced back to work.

She’s sitting there with a blazing headache, ignoring it at her computer, thinking, This is just grief. This is trauma. I just need to get through the day—and not putting two and two together that that’s postpartum preeclampsia and her blood pressure is going through the roof and she needs to be at the hospital now to receive care.

We actually have a mom on our team named Natasha who went through exactly that, and it was only because she was lucky enough that when her paid leave was stripped from her, her company stepped in to say, “Hey, we're gonna pay you anyway. Please stay home.”

As a single mom, she had an incredibly supportive family. Her brother went to stay with her. Her sister was calling her daily. And it was actually her support system that recognized the symptoms of postpartum preeclampsia and rushed her to the hospital—and it saved her life.

Her daughter had been born still at 39 weeks, just a couple of days earlier.

And so I think that’s the really important thing when it comes to the postpartum period—just recognizing that there still is a postpartum period for moms who have delivered a baby born still.

She needs you now more than ever. And she needs you to acknowledge that she gave birth, that she's a mother, that she’s a parent.

Same for the father or non-birth partner—even if this is their first child and they don’t have any other living children. They are parents. And they’re invisible to society.

Everything that you can do to make them feel seen, make them feel heard, and to just make sure they know that their child will never be forgotten—there’s no greater gift.

And there is an entire community and army of other parents like you who are out there fighting for change in your child’s name.

You know, learning to parent a child who has died—it is a lifelong journey. And there’s no right or wrong way to do it.

We are here to support you. And if, like many of us at PUSH, honoring your child through advocacy and activism feels right to you, we’re here to give you the tools to be effective in doing that.

And if that’s not for you, there are tons and tons of other ways that you can honor your child and keep them an active part of your family—because love doesn’t die.

And the reason that the grief after this kind of loss is so horrifically hard is because it is simply a measure of the love that you have for your child.

For anyone going through this: I’m sorry we didn’t get to you in time. I’m sorry you’re joining our club. It’s the worst club in the world, but it does have some really, really incredibly inspiring and amazing people in it. And we would love to connect with you.

Whyte: Samantha, advocacy is such an important part of your work at the individual, government, and systems level. What are some gaps in the care and legislation for parents experiencing stillbirth? What are some actions our audience can take today?

Banerjee: So paid leave is a perfect example of a policy issue currently being fought at the state level—and where listeners can have a really big impact by reaching out to their state representatives.

As Dr. Heather spoke about earlier, stillbirth is still a birth. Moms who have a stillbirth are still going through labor. They're having a vaginal or C-section delivery. They have all the same postpartum effects and potential for complications as anybody else.

Plus, they are five times as likely to experience potentially life-threatening severe maternal complications—and of course are going home without their baby and with all of this additional trauma and costs that no one anticipates at the end of their pregnancy, like paying for autopsy, genetic testing, funeral, burial, or cremation.

It’s not disputed that anybody who goes through this deserves some time:
A) to recover from birth like anybody else;
B) to try to put the pieces of their life back together and figure out how to live with this trauma.

But we don't have the systems in place to support that.

So my friend Cassidy Perone, for example, in New York State—we have a paid family leave program that allows mothers to take up to 12 weeks off after birth, paid up to $1,100 per week.

They frame it as bonding with your baby, and that technicality becomes important because when you have a stillbirth, you no longer have a baby to bond with.

Cassidy got home from Olivia’s funeral—she was born still at 36 weeks, again after a totally normal, healthy pregnancy.

The next day she gets a call from New York State saying, “Hey, we need a copy of your baby's birth certificate in order to issue your paid leave benefits.”

She said, “Oh, well, you don’t get a birth certificate in New York when you have a stillbirth. You get a fetal death certificate. Does that work?”

And the state literally said to her, “Oh, well, you don’t qualify for paid leave anymore because you don’t have a baby to bond with. And so no, that’s not going to work. However, we can roll you over to the temporary disability program, which you do qualify for. However, the benefits for that are only $170 a week instead of the $1,100 that you were expecting.”

She’s the main breadwinner in her family. They were counting on that paid leave. She had been approved for it months earlier in her pregnancy. Now she’s in the situation where she’s like, How am I gonna pay my mortgage? How am I gonna pay my car payments? How am I gonna put food on the table when I’m getting a tenth of what I was promised?

Cassidy went to her doctor two weeks after giving birth—again, to a full-term baby girl after 17 hours of grueling labor. She’s still bleeding. Her breasts are engorged and leaking milk. She’s nearly suicidal, which, again, many of us experience—because who wants to stay on this planet without your child? Certainly no stillbirth mom.

She told her doctor, “I need you to clear me to go back to work, because I can’t afford to stay home.”

Her doctor said, “Cassidy, I will lose my medical license. Nobody can go back to work sooner than six weeks after giving birth. Even if Olivia had lived, you can’t. It’s not safe.”

And so Cassidy, again, was lucky—she was able to blow through her savings, run up her credit card bills, in order to prioritize her physical health over her financial health. But how many families in this country don’t have that option?

It’s cruel. And it’s shameful.

It’s particularly frustrating that now it’s been three years since we brought this to the attention of the New York State legislature. And despite pretty much unanimous agreement from hundreds of legislators we’ve spoken to—from both parties, in both chambers—it still has not been passed into law.

Every day in New York State, there are up to four families suffering a stillbirth, and moms are going home being stripped of their leave and having to make that impossible choice.

Stillbirth wasn’t even a word that had ever been spoken in Congress until a few years ago. That lack of awareness has been a huge roadblock to getting legislation passed to support stillbirth prevention and improved data collection.

So awareness is the first step.

We really have the Black maternal health community to thank for this—because they’ve paved the way by increasing awareness about maternal mortality. And again, these issues are so intimately related.

There were a couple of bills in the last few years on the federal level. One was the Stillbirth Prevention Act, which was a simple wording change to Title V to clarify that Title V funds can be used by state departments of health to connect providers in their state with stillbirth prevention tools.

Before, it didn’t have the word stillbirth in there, so people weren’t sure and weren’t utilizing the resources at their disposal. That actually passed this past summer, so we’re really excited about that.

The second one is the SHINE for Autumn Act, which is currently being reintroduced. Unfortunately, it has not yet made it all the way to the floor.

But this is, again, a very small investment to make sure that our data collection for stillbirth is clean and accurate, and that parents have access to placental pathology.

As Dr. Heather said—we love the placenta. And the placenta holds a lot of the keys to uncovering what actually went wrong in a stillbirth.

And when those are completed and parents do get answers, there’s currently no way to go back and update the system. So researchers are working with inaccurate and incomplete data.

What can you do as somebody listening to this to help? Same thing as with any other policy—call your representatives.

Whyte: They need to know that stillbirth is a thing that’s happening to their constituents, and that our public health and medical system is not, right now, doing what needs to be done to stem the tide of this crisis.

Well, thank you both for being with us today. We really have had a very special episode about an important topic that we’re not talking enough about—stillbirth.

To find out more information about our guests, be sure to check out our show notes. And I want to thank all of you for listening.

Whyte: Please take a moment to follow, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite listening platform. If you’d like to send me an email about topics you’re interested in or questions for future guests, please send me a note at [email protected].

This is Dr. John Whyte for the WebMD Health Discovered podcast.